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Author Topic: Edge mode only supported in Vray? come on guys.  (Read 794 times)

mynewcat

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Edge mode only supported in Vray? come on guys.
« on: February 10, 2015, 05:20:05 PM »
Recently you asked us what expansions to the libraries you should add - I suggested enhancing the libraries you already have.

One of the things I suggested was enhancing the default libraries that make use of the "grass edge" tutorial you have.

It saddens - and makes me very annoyed frankly - that you have chosen to advertise and develop a feature that is only supported by one renderer.

Rather than enhancing the existing libraries (or adding extras) that create new grass that automatically places smaller clumps in the scene, you have chosen to ignore all of the users who don't use Vray.

I don't see why you would do this.

When are you goign to add mental ray support?

You cannot continue making Vray a first class rendered and everything else a second class renderer.

We all paid our money, we all paid our one year upgrade licences - so why are Vray users getting the better deal.

Considering placing grass down for arc viz scenes is one of the most common actions - the best you can do is direct us to an old tutorial?

Why don't you at least make a feature that AUTOMATICALLY brings in small clumps into the scene? AUTOMATICALLY sets the edge falloff etc.

This is really inconsiderate and unfair to us users who choose to use the default rendered that comes with Max.

iToo

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Re: Edge mode only supported in Vray? come on guys.
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 05:40:04 PM »
Hi, copying from my other post:

It's not our intention to provide less support to our Mental Ray customers.

The reasons to implement this feature only for V-Ray are exclusively technical: Edge mode works at render time, removing elements which are outside of the scatter area. Therefore, it requires to implement a custom shader with certain capabilities, but actually only V-Ray allows that.

Regarding advertisement, i apologize if you upgraded or purchased Forest 4.3 with the intention to use Edge mode in Mental Ray, but this limitation was specified in the Forest 4.3 demo reel, the documentation and the Edge mode tutorial.

Before developing Edge mode, we evaluated other solutions but were not practical. Also it's not possible to create a library preset using the tutorial's workaround (small/large clumps), because presets don't import area settings (and there are good reasons for that).
Carlos Quintero
iToo Software

mynewcat

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Re: Edge mode only supported in Vray? come on guys.
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2015, 01:14:49 PM »
Presets don't support area selections?

That's a non-reason.

You could have easily made a series of default settings that work with MR - even if it was just to create a system with grass, then by adding a small clump of grass into the scene alá the tutorial with a script adding things in.

You created the plugin to begin with, you create the rules and systems.

If you can create the scene at all, you should be able to recreate that from a preset - it's that simple.

That's absolutely shambolic programming or management skills.


Absolutely lazy. You guys didn't spend more than a couple of hours trying to find a non VRAY solution. You knew that VRAY had the facility to remove render time proxy rendering and that was pretty much what you intended to do from the beginning. It's so obvious.

I thank you for your reply but the truth is, the solution that you have chosen was the one that took the least amount of time and your reply was just fobbing me off with a lesser product because you guys made a decision to cut off non VRAY users.


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It's not our intention to provide less support to our Mental Ray customers.

You're happy to take our money, but if it requires any effort to develop the product you're not going to spend any time doing it.

It is a non solution, and the problem remains for every other renderer.

The solution you have chosen is not good enough.

You may as well just come out and start advertising this as a VRAY only plugin.

Whoever signed off on this decision made a mistake, and you should go back and fix it, because ForestPack Pro is advertised as supporting half a dozen renderers and creating solutions that only work with one of them is a slap in the face to the rest of us.

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Also it's not possible to create a library preset using the tutorial's workaround (small/large clumps), because presets don't import area settings (and there are good reasons for that).

This is what you should do - go and fix that. That is ridiculous.

At the very least you should have a scripted dialogue that puts a small clump of grass into the scene and shows you what to do step by step.

We'll see then if it's not your intention to neglect non VRAY users.


iToo

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Re: Edge mode only supported in Vray? come on guys.
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2015, 02:30:39 PM »
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If you can create the scene at all, you should be able to recreate that from a preset - it's that simple.
That's absolutely shambolic programming or management skills.
[...]
You're happy to take our money, but if it requires any effort to develop the product you're not going to spend any time doing it.

I'm not going to discuss our development skills with you, or explain each one of the decisions we take about the products. We take in consideration all suggestions from our customers, but not everything can be done.

As I said, we evaluated other solutions for the Edge mode, but they were not practical. That includes presets with small/large clumps. This approach not only requires deep changes to the presets system, but also the need to modify all existing libraries, including third-party products (such as Vizpark). For all that effort, it still wouldn't offer the same level of detail as Edge mode either.

I hope in the future we can implement Edge mode for other renderers. In fact, we made changes in the Forest API to support this feature for other renderers, and documentation has been sent to the developers of render engines that support Forest. But we cannot promise anything. Meanwhile, you can use the manual option provided in the tutorial.

In any case, if you are not satisfied with the product or it doesn't fit your needs, we'll be happy to give you a complete refund.

Carlos Quintero
iToo Software

mynewcat

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Re: Edge mode only supported in Vray? come on guys.
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2015, 04:18:23 PM »
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I'm not going to discuss our development skills with you, or explain each one of the decisions we take about the products. We take in consideration all suggestions from our customers, but not everything can be done.

I'm not asking you to explain "each one of your decisions" am I? that's a bit of a silly thing to say.

What I am asking you, is to consider the ramifications of the decisions that you have made, and what that means to your end users.

You asked us all a while ago what libraries we wanted - and my suggestion that many agreed with - was that the existing libraries need to overhauled.

Not just the bugs, but to improve the quality of your libraries up to a modern standard.

One of those suggestions was an edge mode for grass - and clearly you saw a need for that.

Based on the implementation you have chosen and your subsequent defensive attitude, you consider the matter closed. You chose the simple option that would appease a chunk of your users and clearly the matter is closed.

So yes, the decision you have made is highly questionable.

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As I said, we evaluated other solutions for the Edge mode, but they were not practical. That includes presets with small/large clumps. This approach not only requires deep changes to the presets system, but also the need to modify all existing libraries, including third-party products (such as Vizpark). For all that effort, it still wouldn't offer the same level of detail as Edge mode either.

I think you DO need to overhaul your libraries. I think you need to make the libraries that exist a higher quality. Your kerbs, things like this etc. it's what you should be doing.

But I don't see why you couldn't have just added new libraries in? A section of grass for non VRAY users only.

It seems as if the only justification you have for your decision was "the VRAY option was easy, and everything else was hard" - which isn't good enough.

Notice that you have done nothing for non VRAY users on this matter - apart from writing off to the other render manufactures. We call that "passing the buck"

Meanwhile, you can use the manual option provided in the tutorial.

Tell me again why you can't have a special scripted dialogue that pops up and walks you through it, putting the correct grass clumps into the scene?

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In any case, if you are not satisfied with the product or it doesn't fit your needs, we'll be happy to give you a complete refund.

That's very kind of you - but I'm up to my neck in projects. I'm not about to swap now as I've just bought into the eco system.

I'll get back to you about the refund when I have time.

I absolutely HATE being a second class user.